| "이전: "평화의 종교는" 다시 친다 | 다음: 아라비아 사람에게 세계 주는 것은 팔레스타인 사람에 오르는가? " |
이스라엘 PA 위기에 카타르 해결책은 유엔 안전 이사회에 선물했다
2006년 7월 12일 -- del.icio.us에 이 포스트를 추가하십시오 아라비아 사람 세계에서 유출하는 온건함의 음성이 인 것처럼 보인다. 카타르는 이스라엘과 Gaza에서 일어나는 현재 문제에 해결책을 탁상에 놓는 것처럼 보인다. 계획안 Gaza에게서 이스라엘의 철수와 팔레스타인 사람의 납치된 완전한 Gilad Shalit의 방출 요청. 카타르의 계획안에 관하여 유일했던 무엇이 그것 "이다이스라엘에 Kassam 로켓트 발사에 관한 소리난 깊은 관심, 그리고 18 년 오래된 Eliyahu Asheri 2 및 반의 kidnapping 그리고 살인을 포함하여 그리고 공포 폭력 행위 모든, 주 전에 비난해."
For any Arab government to stand up and NOT blame Israel fully for the current violence, is quite a departure of the way things were. Let’s hope that other Arab governments realize the futility of blaming Israel fully, while ignoring the provocations of Palestinians, including that of the Hamas government and their “military wing”.
Tags:arab government , arab world , Eliyahu Asheri , Gilad Shalit , peace process , qatar , rocket launches
July 12th, 2006 at 8:31 pm
Daniel Yankelovich submitted a brief but informative comment, more like a report–”Impressions from my recent visit to Qatar”–after attending the U.S.-Islamic World Forum. His report is in the ILF Post, the blog I work to promote. Dan is a Fellow of the Intrernational Leadership Forum, an internet-based, nonprofit, independent think tank. He is the author of “The Magic of Dialogue” among other books. Check out http://www.ilfpost.org and read his post. A comment is welcome of course.
My own opinion is independent. There seem to be age-old resentments, religious intolerance, misunderstanding, battles unresolved. This is 2006 and still they keep on prolonging each other’s agony! I know: it is easy for me to sit here in California and be objective. But I was a child yet I recall when Hitler ghettoized the Jews and then murdered upwards of seven millions? Now there is a new ghetto–in some places 25 feet high–miles and miles long–created by the Israelis to protect them from the Palestinians. It does not protect them. It protects no one. It is a wall symbolizing NO QUARTER. It does two things: (1) It keeps nonparticipating working peace-loving Palestinians from going to work without being checked in. (2) It keeps families apart, and only incites more anger. (3) It keeps the average Israeli from some Palestinians who are their friends. It should be torn down for the good of both sides. It does nothing for anyone. It is like a border, and the Palestinians are treated like illegal aliens are treated here in California. There is equal blame. Now the Palestinian government has the wherewithal and the tools for peace–or destruction. They must call a truce, and just for a short while at least–the Palestinians and Israelis must extricate themselves from the hatred in their battle for a very small but extremely precious land. Neither wants to recognize the other. Think: when the Hamas won the election, it ceased to be just a subversive organization and emerged as a government which has the possibility of being validated and cease being synonymous with terrorism. I have read that this government wants to get with it, join the world. If the new President is serious, then, for the sake of the people, who elected him, he should now step up to the plate and reach out the hand of peace to the Israelis. The Israelis in turn should not treat any kind of Palestinian olive branch like a Trojan horse. There should be a time out from suspicious minds and hearts. There should be a new stage set for true real dialogue here, no catch, no loopholes. This positive action could make people listen. Have someone neutral facilitate the dialogue. Set up rules, and go strictly by them. OK, Some may say “come on–you’re oversimplifying it. This is a terrorist group!” Obviously not all Palestinians are terrorists and not all Israelis are implacable. The average citizens on both sides of this great wall wants peace. How many more deaths will it take? The Israelis came to their land and made it a state and their fathers and mothers perished in the Holocaust. Did they die in vain–what would their parents think if they saw this battle still unresolved? To inflict the same treatment toward Palestine as the Germans did them is history repeating itself. They have to live side by side and there must be an end to this standoff. Is it possible for both sides to stop glaring at each other and learn to get a little compassion for their enemies? Is compassion possible in this arena?
July 13th, 2006 at 4:01 pm
With all due respect, Andrea, I don’t think you have a good understanding of the importance of the fence that Israel is building (it has existed in Gaza for a while now - the new one is being built on the West Bank border). Yes, the fence has some repercussions which you mention, but the West Bank fence has prevented hundreds of Palestinian terrorist attacks on Israel. How can you say it does nothing for anyone? It has prevented the deaths of hundreds Israelis, surely a benefit, unless you are a sadistic killer-lover.
I’m unsure where you’re getting your information. A couple of your comments make me question your sources, including:
“Neither wants to recognize the other.”: Israel’s stance, since 1948, has been a two-state solution. This has been repeated by EVERY government, left and right, since then. On the other hand, the Arab stance, since 1948, has been the destruction of Israel. That is the reason for the wars in 1948, 1953, 1967, 1973 and 1982, as well as both the first and second intifadas. How can you equate the two sides?
“I have read that this government wants to get with it, join the world.”: Hamas, with it’s “military wing”, is a terrorist organization to the bone. They live and die Islamism - that is their reason for being. They care about one thing, and one thing only - Islam. If they have to have innocent people die, they don’t care, because they believe it’s “Allah’s will”. They have done NOTHING to prove that they want to “join the world” and until they do, why should we give them the benefit of the doubt? They’ve intentionally killed too many innocent people to be given the benefit of the doubt.
“To inflict the same treatment toward Palestine as the Germans did them is history repeating itself.” : HOW DARE YOU COMPARE THESE TWO SITUATIONS! The Jews were defenseless, lead to their slaughter by the thousands. I’ve blown away this comparison before and I’ll do it again. SIX MILLION JEWS were killed over six year - that’s 1,000,000 per year or 2,740 EVERY SINGLE DAY DURING THAT TIME. While this was happening, only a handful of Nazi soldiers were killed by Jews.
In contrast, since 2000 (almost six years now), about 5,000 Palestinians have been killed, the MAJORITY OF THEM COMBATANTS! Yes, Israel has accidentally killed innocent Palestinian civilians, but they’ve apologized for it every single time. This happens because the terrorists act in civilian neighbourhoods hoping to maximize civilian casualties! How many Palestinians have been killed per day since the beginning of this Intifadah, which was started by the Palestinians? 2.4! 2.4 Palestinians killed per day, most of them armed because they were about to initiate a terrorist attack, and YOU HAVE THE AUDACITY TO COMPARE ISRAELIS TO NAZIS? Shame on you.
Andrea, I’m sure you’re a well-meaning individual, but your knowledge about the facts on the ground and the history of this conflict appears to be weak. I urge you to think before you make comments comparing Israel to Nazis. It is insulting not just to Jewish victims of the Holocaust, but to all the other millions who died at the hands of the Nazis. Israel has tried compassion many, many times (again, you don’t know your history - Israel built the infrastructure West Bank and Gaza after the 1967 war!). The side that is missing compassion is the Palestinian side, led by terrorists. If you think that the Palestinians are doing what they can for peace, you’re sorely mistaken. I hope you take the opportunity to read a little about the history of this war and perhaps you’ll consider changing your point of view.
July 13th, 2006 at 7:17 pm
Steve, your reply and anger are justified. I’ll bring up the worst one first. I am sincerely sorry for much of what I wrote. It however was not to compare the Holocaust with the situation today and to call Israelis Nazis. Also, I am not “a sadistic killer-lover.” So help me, those parents I meant were those who escaped and built the new land–what would they think if they saw this battle between the two cultures–Arabs and Jews– still unresolved? The three words “history repeating itself” were a gross mistake I made. To you it was my opinion. I said, what I had wrought, and your post did succeed in making me feel deeply ashamed and ask your pardon for such a bad choice of words. It is not my habit to insult anyone or any culture, any faith, or any country, please believe me.
When I wrote “I have read that this government wants to get with it, join the world” I had seen it on C-Span, listened to speakers, etc. Throughout my post my plea was to both sides and I still believe the average working person who is not an extremist, just people making a living on both sides– want peace, and would like to see a light at the end of the tunnel. I know of course that Hamas is a terrorist organization and I had no idea that it could be a political party. When that faction was voted in to govern the Palestinians I was as negative and fearful as anyone.
Then I remembered our own Civil War, which took hundreds of thousands of lives on both sides. Back in the 40s and 50s in the US the southern Democrats or Dixiecrats were segregationists and fanatic groups like the Ku Klux Klan were running amok, killing indiscriminately anyone who was not W.A.S.P. (to me like the Islamist extremists today). In fact, some of the Dixiecrats were elected to Congress. But things changed. It was a hard, bloody battle–and I believe if someone like Martin Luther King–by his inspiration and example–changed the midset of the country, then, anything is possible. In fact, the Dixiecrats did a 180 and began fighting for civil rights. You may say–well, wasn’t Dr. King assassinated? Yes. But his dream has been realized. If the former Dixiecrats can become Democratic and believe in equality of all, then cannot any culture begin to try it? Truly the word Hamas is sysnonymous with terrorism, but might it not be possible that it has come out in the open to be a political party so that it too might change? It must–or it will destroy itself while taking everyone with it. Again, whether it does any good or not, I sincerely apologize, again, for being ignorant on a few other points. In my post I truly was not comparing the amount of deaths between Palestinians and Israelis to the Holocaust, it was the ghettos, it was the wall. The Great Wall of China. The Belin Wall. The walls between people. Perhaps no matter what I read or watch it is the symbolism of a wall and not a bridge, then, as you say, I have no understanding of it. It is obvious the Palestinians could take a few lessons from the Israelis in diplomacy. Yes, I also realize that the fanatics have their own law–and yes, they see it as the will of Allah. I am sure it will do no good to say it was not the deaths I was comparing. How can anyone compare them? But to offend you or anyone was not my intent. Usually I am not so careless. But to me, even the loss of even one life in a struggle is regrettable. Again I ask your pardon and if you do not even bother to respond, I will understand.
July 14th, 2006 at 2:09 am
Andrea,
It takes a brave person to admit their wrongs, and for that reason, I respect you. I appreciate your sincere apology, and I know it is sincere. Now that you explain your point, I can understand what you are getting at, but I still think you’re making an emotional error…and you’re not alone.
I can understand that somebody looking from the outside can see Israel’s separation barrier as an impediment to peace - I really can. However, given it’s effectiveness in stopping suicide bombers from entering into Israel and killing innocent people, I would have to say you’re in the wrong. The Berlin Wall and the Great Wall of China didn’t have a situation like Israel has - a hostile neighbor willing to destroy itself to destroy their enemy (and this is what they’re doing). On the border between the US and Mexico, there is a fence too - and all Mexicans want to do is to get work!
Comparing Hamas to the Democratic party is premature. We live in the 21st century now and the world has changed. Certain things that were “acceptable” back in the early 20th century aren’t acceptable anymore. Hamas still has much to do to be compared to the Democratic party. They have to drop their “military wing”, they have to accept that they will not get everything they want, and they have to start showing their own people that armed conflict is not the way of the future. So far, they don’t do that (they didn’t do it under Fatah either). Need proof? You only need to look at MEMRI (http://memritv.org) and Palestinian Media Watch (http://www.pmw.org.il/) to find it. Unfortunately, Yasser Arafat did a great job at producing the next generation of Palestinian fighters by glorifying suicide bombers and encouraging shehada (martyrdom) - http://www.pmw.org.il/tv%20part3.html.
I, like you Andrea, really want peace. Unfortunately, I think we both know that it will take a wild readjustment in the Palestinian attitude. Israel tried to give sovereignty over to the Palestinians, but all they managed to do was destroy what was left and fire rockets into Israel. Is this a group of people ready to become a nation? I don’t think so. Do they even deserve it???
July 14th, 2006 at 2:20 pm
Steve, your prompt response meant a lot to me. I was chastened, yet straightened out. I also see your point regarding th borders. It is a shame it must be done. I have read more about this, so that I am better informed. Thank goodness the Internet gives me access to anything. I just “google” one word and a wealth of information pops up. To further prove your point, I was was shocked and dismayed to watch the UN Assembly regarding the Lebanon-Israeli debacle. There seem to be an armed camp against Israel in that group. It finally hit me when John Bolton (whom I personally find revolting) actually said something sensible and clarified things more for me. It seemed that everyone was parroting the pro-Hezbollah and denouncing Israel. When Lebanon and Argentina, and other countries spoke up, they stated that disproportionate response by Israel was only fueling things. But then, in the actual headlines, I read that is not the case at all and it isn’t just about two Israeli soldiers, it’s about the other atrocities the Hezbollah terrorists were inflicting on innocent Israelis. Today it was reported in the NY Times they were heavily bombing Haifa and killing children and women. The Hamas and the Hezbollah are it seems in cahoots, so there are two fanatical enemies Israel must deal with. And I also understand why Israel is retaliating so strongly. Still I wish that it could end. It is a tinderbox over there and I feel badly for innocent people who are suffering, on both sides. There seems to be no hope. Thank you again for enlightening me and I wish you the very best in your endeavors in this Weblog. I am glued to it now that I understand its purpose.
P.S. Thank you for the referral to pmw.org etc etc���I watched the videos. It made me both fume at the parents and cry for the children who are being taught, from the time they can first talk, to learn how to become a terrorist.
July 14th, 2006 at 10:54 pm
Hi Andrea,
Again, a pleasure to have dialogue with you - I wish I “straightened out” most of the people I’ve had dialogue with over the years of running this site (almost 6 years now!), but alas, that was not meant to be (you can see http://www.middleeastfacts.com/guestbook/ for proof).
I’m glad that you’ve decided to educate yourself on the entire situation happening in the Middle East. Every single event that occurs in the Middle East is part of a much larger context. People tend to try to oversimplify the situation, but, simply put, it’s not a simple situation!
I’m especially glad to hear that you got to watch the Security Council meeting on the current conflict. I’d like to point out that this is the way Israel has always been treated at the UN - because of the importance of black gold (i.e. oil), Israel’s enemies have always had the world in their back pocket (nevermind the fact that there are 51 Islamic countries and 22 Arab countries at the UN). Besides smart people, Israel doesn’t have much in terms of natural resources and thus, they don’t have much clout with non-Muslim countries.
Israel has always had to deal with the constant threat of war - that’s the part of the world they’re in. Their enemies have always been causing trouble - before it was state run, now it’s state sponsored, so that the states don’t have to take responsibility for it.
Andrea, I wish it could end too. But, as the brilliant ex-PM of Israel, Golda Meir, once said, “If the Arabs would put down their arms today, tommorow there would be no war. And if we put our arms down today, tomorrow there would be no Israel.” I think we’ve seen this time and time again. When Israel has a opportunity to make peace, they make it. When the Palestinians have an opportunity to make peace, they don’t. The same can be said for most other Arab countries (not including Egypt and Jordan).
“Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.” - Abba Eben
All the best Andrea! Keep commenting!
July 17th, 2006 at 10:14 pm
Well, Steve,
It sounds like Golda, my fellow New Yorker, said it best. Who knew she said that? Thanks, I’ll have to read her biography. I sure loved and revered her, a real hero. She had so much going against her but was strong and brave. I bet if she were here now, things would be somewhat different. I can see her sitting down in front of a captured Arab lad saying (after giving him a nice hot meal), “Look, you’re too young to be filling your head with stories about 74 harem girls in Paradise. That’s like a dog chasing a car–when you catch it, what do you do with it? Go home, son, and take care of your mother and sisters.” I know that sounds easy but you know, women have a way of straightening things out with little more than simple reasoning.
In the Bush admin. we’ve got some real Rottweilers in the form of greedy neocons in power. This guy thinks that we existed along with dinosaurs, and is a young-earth creationist fanatic who wants to be remembered as a wartime President and he exploited 9/11 for his own reasons, it was a “godsend” for him. There’s a Greek word for that: polymechanos (fertile in devices). I sincerely believe (as do many millions here) we should never have turned our sights onto Iraq. It’s right next to that tinderbox, Iran, who wants to destroy Israel, and has said so. We should have concentrated our efforts on getting bin Laden and would have succeeded. We brag that Afghanistan is now liberated, and it isn’t, any more than Iraq. We did collateral damage killing upwards of 100,000 in Iraq, did that liberate anyone? I think the Iraq invasion is doing Israel more harm than good. I guess you got me to re-reading some of my books and doing a lot of surfing on line. The US has been a friend of Israel for so long that we don’t remember ever being otherwise, Democrat or Republican, and will never abandon her. And Israel would do the same for us. After looking at some facts I’ve concluded that perhaps the reason Israel and the Palestinians are at such odds is that Israel is a democracy and has moved ahead, modernized with the times, while still retaining her core beliefs, and preserving her ancient heritage. Conversely, the Palestinian Arabs have stood stlil in time, refusing to budge. It seems Israel is the only civilized group of people over there, and maybe that is why I was so ready to understand more that anyone could tell me. But the fact that Israel is America’s friend, too, and America of course is to most Middle Eastern countries “the great Satan” is the thorn in the Palestinians’ side.
The consensus of opinion here, however, is Bush, Cheney, et al., are more loyal to Saudi Arabia, the sheikhs, and their billions than to Israel, though. The war has made more enemies for us, and it follows that it has made more enemies for Israel. I believe Israel has a better chance of surviving when the Bush Admin’s term is over. Bush is a lame duck president and has no further interest in doing anything except be remembered as a wartime President. The US may be Israel’s friend but Bush is more friendly with Saudi Arabia (half of whom are related to Osama bin Laden)! So keep your friends close and your enemies closer. Thanks for this forum, Steve.
July 17th, 2006 at 11:25 pm
Hi Andrea,
I’m happy to provide the forum for you. You know why I’m glad you wrote what you wrote? I don’t necessarily agree with you about the American administration, but what you said is important because supporting Israel’s right to exist shouldn’t be a left/right issue. Just as nobody challenges South America’s right to exist or Peru’s right to exist, Israel’s right to exist should not be challenged. Israel is a fact on the ground - 5 million Jews and over 1 million Arabs are proud to call Israel home.
Somehow, Israel has always become a political issue, with left and right taking sides. I addressed the issue of the Left supporting the Palestinians in a post way back when (
The Sad State of the Left) and I still fault the Left, in general, for thinking of the Middle East conflict as a weak versus strong issue, an oppressed versus oppressor issue, rather than a right versus wrong issue.
Perhaps if more women were involved in politics, we’d have much less war going on. I am too young to remember Golda Meir, but I can just imagine her saying what you wrote above, and you’re right - it probably would have made a difference!
I fear for the future of Israel. The Middle East is a dangerous neighbourhood, and there are plenty of stupid leaders there that would love to drop a nuke on Israel. But having said that, Israel is tough and smart. Israel has faced adversity and overcome it with flying colours, becoming a world leader in technology.
I urge those of you on the Left to reconsider your stance, as Andrea has done. Don’t view the Middle East as a left versus right issue. You don’t have to support the US Administration to support Israel’s right to exist in peace with it’s neighbours. History is with Israel - the Jewish state has made peace with two of her neighbours (Egypt and Jordan) and is more than willing to make peace with the rest, but cannot do so under the threat of violence from neighbouring states or terror groups operating in neighbour countries. Hezbollah is the only thing standing in the way of peace between Lebanon and Israel, and terrorist groups, including Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Fatah (Al Aqsa Martyr’s Brigades) are the only things standing in the way of peace between Israel and the Palestinians.
Let’s hope Lebanon and the Palestinians smarten up, join the 21st century and learn to make peace. Israel is waiting for the opportunity.
Steve
July 20th, 2006 at 4:40 pm
The Middle East to me has never been a partisan issue. Even when I was writing my first post to you I still could not understand why the Palestinians could want to take over Israel when there are vast Arabian lands that would welcome them. Israel is such a small country. Why are they not entitled to that land? It was there millenia before the Arabs became monotheistic, i.e., before Islam was even founded, and before they ever thought of fighting the Jews. It has existed since civilized time began. How can it suddenly not exist? I wonder how the Palestinians would answer that one.
Can I ask you something honestly? Do you really believe Bush is a good president in any other way? I am not a right or left person. I know some stauch republicans who have become disillusioned with where their party is headed. Gore would have been pro-Israel if he’d gotten elected. I have to vote my conscience, not just democratic. Bush is not unique among presidents in being Israel’s friend. That cannot be denied.
July 20th, 2006 at 11:52 pm
Is Bush a good president? It’s not for me to decide - I’m not American! What do I personally think of George? He seems like a decent guy, perhaps a bit slow. However, I think that his current stance is necessary in a situation we have today. It is possible that Al Gore could have been pro-Israel, but Israel is just one battlefront in the war between radical Islam and the West (albeit, an important one). I don’t think Al Gore would have had the political will to pursue terrorists as George Bush has done. Bill Clinton had more than enough intelligence (in his head, as well as from the CIA) to pursue terrorists, yet he shied away. What makes you think that Al Gore wouldn’t have done the same?
My personal belief about the American presence in Iraq is that the American leaders (and military) feel that having a presence smack-dab in the middle of the Middle East is the first step in reducing radicalism. Iraq borders six Muslim countries, among them Syria, Iran and Saudi Arabia. Syria and Iran lead the charge in terms of promoting Islamic terror (Syria houses the head offices of most Palestinian terror groups, Iran seems to be big on igniting a nuclear war) and Saudi Arabia is responsible for the spread of Islamic radicalism in the West.
Will this strategy work? Time will tell. You could very well look back at 40 years from now and say “I was wrong. George Bush saved America and the West”.
In response to your first question, I have heard Palestinians deny that Jew ever lived in the Middle East. Of course, this is sheer stupidity. The Palestinians are majority Muslim, who believe in “the book” (which comprises of the Jewish and Christian scriptures). Both Jewish and Christian scriptures talk, ad nauseum, about Israel and Jerusalem in particular. The entire Christian scriptures is based in Israel! So, for Muslims to claim that Jews never lived in Israel is to defy their own religion.
This issue was big a few years ago, when Israel stupidly allowed the Palestinian Authority to excavate underneath Al Aqsa mosque. Apparently, the Muslim authorities were discarding of invaluable antiquities as if they were garbage. They also caused some controversy, because at one point it appeared as though they had excavated to such a point that the Southern wall of the Temple compound was ready to collapse, which would have brought down the Al Aqsa mosque! Apparently, Israeli Authorities stepped in and solidified the wall, preventing disaster. To read about the controversy at the time, read Battle of the Bulge - Will the Wall Collapse?
July 21st, 2006 at 8:46 pm
Dear Steve,
Here’s a blurb from Robert Weissman in the Huffington Post: American Jews call for Cease Fire in Lebanon. And here’s a paragaraph directly from it:
“It has long been the case that, while wanting to support Israel’s well-being, the American Jewish community is divided over basic peace and justice issues in the Middle East. This remains true today, with divisions over the Israeli bombing of Lebanon and the issue that must be resolved for peace to come to the region — the Israel-Palestine conflict.”
What do you think?
On Bush: He didn’t invade Iraq until after 9-11, based on bad intelligence and his own religosity. That would make us Crusaders, which is appalling. It doesn’t look as if that Iraq hornet’s nest will ever be over. I predict we’ll still be there another decade no matter who becomes President in 2008 because the Republicans will win Congress. I hope it’s over as soon as possible. Also, Israel has her hands full already so I hope she doesn’t lose a lot more soldiers in this conflict. It’s not fanaticism that drives Israel, but it is with the Hezbollah. I do trust McCain though, so I’m not an implacable Democrat who refuses to listen to anyone outside my so-called party. McCain is cool, ethical, intelligent, knows what it’s like to be a POW, and is strong in his support of Israel. He also has no one in his pocket and he is no one’s pocket, as is Bush.
This Just In from Andrea: If a Democratic candidate I don’t believe in runs for office, I’ll vote for McCain. I’m more of an independent who tries to understand both parties. I have been skeptical about many things lately. At age 69 in September I’m still willing to keep my ears open. I’m a Virgo, very analytical. But I simply cannot fathom Bush. Yes, he’s a hawk, and goes after Israel’s enemies, but he’s rash and shoots from the hip. I doubt I will think that makes him the one who saved America and the West, not when North Korea has its bombs trained on us, bin Laden makes more threats to bomb us, and Iran has plans to blow us up and terrorists are hiding here in the US. It’s rather as if he destroyed America. Time, as you say, will tell, on all counts.
That’s true–the denial of Israel by Muslims is really impossible. They want to keep their heads in the sand. Are you Israeli, do you live here or in Israel, Steve? I’m a mixed bag (half Greek and one-30th everything else on the other half) from New York but a frustrated California musician.